Discussion:
The truth about rape accusations
(too old to reply)
i***@yahoo.com
2005-01-05 15:50:59 UTC
Permalink
I have enclosed a link to an article from a source more reliable than
www.ncfm.org. Like the study I've quoted, it documents what anyone
familiar with the phenomenon has known for a long time already: That
most accusations of rape in America over the last decade were false, as
were most rape convictions.

When I came to America, I read works by Jefferson, Thoreau, Emerson,
Franklin and other great minds that were formative to this country. The
idea that all of them stressed repeatedly was that of liberty; the
second idea they all stressed repeatedly was that of due process; and
the third, of honesty and transparency. And yet when I went to college
in 1992-1994, I found a climate that possessed none of the preceding. I
found myself in a toxic, paranoid, vicious, hysterical environment that
preyed on men's compassion and women's fears to conduct mass
prosecutions, to demonize, to frighten. To make everyone believe that
the world is a dangerous place, and through poisoning the social
climate to the extent that some people were driven to desperation
appearing to prove their self-fulfilling falsehood. To convince people
to give up their constitutional liberties in order that a protection
racket - of claiming to protect people from enemies, while artificially
manufacturing enemies through the mechanism of shadow projection and
social poisioning - be allowed, under pretense of protecting them, to
take away all their rights and freedoms and reason and sanity.

It is needless to say that I was furious at this abomination; and my
response - to finish college in two years instead of four, while
fighting this hideousness with every tool in my arsenal - is something
that many people at my college remember, some hatefully and others
fondly.

When people prey on the good in the people for agendas that have no
good in them - on compassion, for agendas that have no compassion; on
honor, for agendas that have no honor; on goodwill, for agendas that
have no goodwill; on honesty, for agendas that have no honesty; on
desire for justice and fairness, for agendas that have no justice or
fairness - the best in the human nature is turned into tool of
wickedness. The mind and the heart are perverted, and all the good in
them turn into tool of wrong. The people who otherwise would be doing
good deeds, performing philanthropic works, sowing compassion and
generosity, helping the needy, producing great works, loving other
people and loving each other, are turned through a sleight of hand into
murderers, henchmen, liars, brutes, barbarians and vicious scoundrels.
The good, unaccustomed to evil and therefore undefended, is led through
the mechanism of manipulation into serving people who have no good in
them and who, rather than appreciating the good for being the good,
sees it as stupid and weak and shamelessly uses it to do work of
terror.

I saw this in Communist Russia, and I see it done in a more
sophisticated form in America. Through sophistry, manipulation,
fear-mongering, toxicity and predation on all human qualities, both
good and bad, the evil people turn good people into tools of
destruction. I see this among the abrasive Republican brats of the kind
that spuriously accused Clinton of unspeakable monstrosities, said that
environment does not matter, thought that 30% taxes made America a
socialist country and claimed to want government off their backs while
their states received huge subsidies from the government; but the form
I focus on here is the form that was taken by the so-called feminists
of 1990s and their henchmen. And the form is as follows: In the name of
prosecuting the supposedly unspeakable crime of rape, was excused a far
greater crime than rape and indeed one of the worst crimes in the
history of America - the false prosecution and conviction of thousands
of innocent men and boys, who as a result of their convictions
experienced far worse horrors than committed by any rapists - and had
their lives ruined to a far greater extent than life can be ruined by
just about any rape.

I've known a number of American women who have been raped. Most of them
live lives that, while not always perfect, are far better lives than
ones led by vast majority of humanity. A man who has been convicted of
rape, in addition to all the brutality he will experience in prison,
will experience extreme hardship for the rest of his life. To falsely
accuse a man of rape, is a crime far more hideous, lasting and cruel
than just about any form of rape except, perhaps, one that results in
murder or permanent mutilation. And, in most cases, its results are
just as horrible - and in many respects resulting in more lasting
suffering - than either of the above.

A large part of the prosecutors' ideology was the idea that rape was so
traumatic an experience, that a woman who has been raped pretty much is
ruined for the rest of her life. That is utter nonsense. In Ethiopia,
Bosnia, Sudan, Indonesia, Congo, Rwanda, Sierra Leone and many other
countries, a large section of the population of women either get raped
continuously or have been raped during civil conflict. Are their lives
ruined? Well they live, right? They have kids. Some even have good
jobs, good spiritual lives, an existence that has meaning and purpose
and quality. Is anything like that at all possible for a man in America
who has been falsely convicted of rape?

Under the pretext of the unspeakable trauma inflicted by rape, was
justified a far more hideous crime: The crime of false prosecution and
false conviction of thousands of innocent American men. They were
subjected to far greater, more lasting and more traumatic brutality
than just about any woman who actually has been raped, and their lives
were utterly and completely ruined in a far more real and far more
immediate way than can be claimed by any living, non-mutilated rape
victim.

In a discussion of the issue in college, someone wrote about a scant
possibility that "an upstanding" male could get accused falsely. It
doesn't matter if you are upstanding or not; Everyone has right to not
be accused and convicted of crimes that they did not commit! The law is
not about popularity contests or character analysis; it is about
justice and truth, and to turn the issue into a popularity contest or
character analysis is to pervert the law and all it is based on and all
it exists to protect.

Let's turn the issue around here, shall we? What is the character of a
woman who falsely makes a rape accusation? For starters, definitely,
almost unfathomable cruelty, viciousness and lack of concern for the
next person; for who would subject the next person - whatever she
thinks of him - to what a man who gets falsely accused of rape goes
through in prison and afterwards? Secondly, a lying, cheating heart and
a devious mind that would concoct a false rape story and convince judge
and jurors, through fake tears and fake trauma description, that she
was subjected to an imaginary atrocity. Third, extreme sense of
entitlement; fourth, complete disregard for truth; and fifth and most
important, complete lack of compassion, caring, wisdom, goodness,
virtue or honesty.

Now let's ask yourself here for a minute. What character is more
harmful: The character profile of rapist, or the character profile of
false rape accuser? Who is more dangerous to this country, to its
founding principles, to its stated character and ultimately the
well-being of its citizens? Who can do more damage to America: Some
stupid Mexican brute who has a blonde fixation, or a woman who knows
her way around America, knows how to manipulate the system, knows how
to play on people's emotions, and has such utter lack of concern for
the well-being of the next person and such utter contempt for the
intelligence and the virtue of other people that she plays them like
violins for the purpose of grievously injuring the next person and then
going back to consider herself a good citizen and raise her children to
have herself as a mother?

What else would the world expect from such a person? The possibilities
are mind-boggling; but when presented with someone who has such a
mindset I would pick a rapist (or even a murderer) as a safer bet for
the long-term benefit of America any day. The rape hysteria took
everything good in the human nature and made it a tool of evil. And
that, along with the human toll of the thousands of falsely convicted
men and boys, made it one of the greatest atrocities ever perpetrated
on American soil.

Ilya Shambat.


============================
Believe Her! The Woman Never Lies Myth
Frank S. Zepezauer*


ABSTRACT: Empirical evidence does not support the widespread belief
that women are extremely unlikely to make false accusations of male
sexual misconduct. Rather the research on accusations of rape, sexual
harassment, incest, and child sexual abuse indicates that false
accusations have become a serious problem. The motivations involved in
making a false report are widely varied and include confusion, outside
influence from therapists and others, habitual lying, advantages in
custody disputes, financial gain, and the political ideology of radical
feminism.
Male sexual misconduct - rape, incest, stalking, sexual harassment,
child molestation, pornography trafficking - has, according to some
observers, become a problem so big that it demands a big solution, not
only the reform of our legal system but of our entire society. Yet the
increasingly heated debate over this crisis has focused primarily on
how these misbehaviors are defined and how often they occur. The
estimated numbers keep mounting. We hear that perhaps 31 million women
are suffering from some form of rape, 41 million from harassment, 58
million from child sexual abuse, and all 125 million of them - from
toddlers to grandmothers - from a toxic "rape culture" that
suffocates the feminine spirit.
Much less discussed is how often an allegation of male sexual
misconduct is false. The question seldom enters the debate because,
presumably, it had long ago been settled. Pennsylvania State Law
Professor Philip Jenkins (1993), in a review of the "feminist
jurisprudence" which leads the sex crisis counterattack, reports that
in response to the question its proponents have established an
"unchallengeable orthodoxy." It is that "women did not lie about such
victimization, never lied, not out of personal malice, not from mental
instability or derangement" (p.19).
Jenkins is not the first to cite this will to believe. Wendy Kaminer
(1993) reported that "it is a primary article of faith among many
feminists that women don't lie about rape, ever; they lack the
dishonesty gene" (p.67). Eight years earlier, in 1985, John O'Sullivan
discovered a widespread defense of the belief that "no woman would
fabricate a rape charge" (p.22). Feminists themselves admit as much.
Law Professor Susan Estrich stated that "the whole effort at reforming
rape laws has been an attack on the premise that women who bring
complaints are suspect" (Newsweek, 1985, p.61). Some feminists believe
that even defending that premise is a sex crime. Alan Dershowitz (1993)
reports that he was accused of sexual harassment for discussing in
class the possibility of false rape allegations.
Believing the self-proclaimed victim of sexual misconduct has thus
evolved from ideological conviction to legal doctrine and, in some
jurisdictions, into law. California now requires that jurors be
explicitly told that a rape conviction can be based on the accuser's
testimony alone, without corroboration (Associated Press, 1992;
Farrell, 1993). Canada is proposing that a man accused of rape must
demonstrate that he received the willing consent of a sexual partner.
These new rules rest on the assumption that women do not lie because
they have no motive to lie. Consequently, as Jenkins (1993) states, the
question of the "victim's credibility" has now become "crucial."
Is that credibility warranted, particularly as feminist jurisprudence
would want it established, as nearly automatic? Not if we consult
recent history. And if we do, we will find that we do indeed face a
sexual misconduct crisis, but not the one radical feminists now insist
is ubiquitous in our society.
More on: http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_2_4.htm
Ike
2005-01-05 16:24:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by i***@yahoo.com
I have enclosed a link to an article from a source more reliable than
www.ncfm.org. Like the study I've quoted, it documents what anyone
familiar with the phenomenon has known for a long time already: That
most accusations of rape in America over the last decade were false, as
were most rape convictions.
When I came to America, I read works by Jefferson, Thoreau, Emerson,
Franklin and other great minds that were formative to this country. The
idea that all of them stressed repeatedly was that of liberty; the
second idea they all stressed repeatedly was that of due process; and
the third, of honesty and transparency. And yet when I went to college
in 1992-1994, I found a climate that possessed none of the preceding. I
found myself in a toxic, paranoid, vicious, hysterical environment that
preyed on men's compassion and women's fears to conduct mass
prosecutions, to demonize, to frighten. To make everyone believe that
the world is a dangerous place, and through poisoning the social
climate to the extent that some people were driven to desperation
appearing to prove their self-fulfilling falsehood. To convince people
to give up their constitutional liberties in order that a protection
racket - of claiming to protect people from enemies, while artificially
manufacturing enemies through the mechanism of shadow projection and
social poisioning - be allowed, under pretense of protecting them, to
take away all their rights and freedoms and reason and sanity.
For example?
--
The argument that everything had a Creator because it's too complicated, is
about as reasonable as saying that it couldn't have been created since it's
too complicated.
It's about like saying that a super flea created a dog. Then
the good fleas go to a great dog in the sky, while the bad unbelieving fleas
are scratched off into a super rug to be forever hungry. If you think dogs
weren't created by a Great Flea then you are an atheist flea.
i***@yahoo.com
2005-01-05 16:39:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ike
For example?
Read the post before responding.

Here's the link I provided:
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_2_4.htm .
John Baker
2005-01-05 18:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by i***@yahoo.com
Post by Ike
For example?
Read the post before responding.
Perhaps more people would read your posts if you made an attempt to be
less long-winded. <G>
Post by i***@yahoo.com
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_2_4.htm .
Ike
2005-01-07 04:03:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by i***@yahoo.com
Post by Ike
For example?
Read the post before responding.
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_2_4.htm .
I don't have time to surf to your fucking links, How about writing a post
that sounds less like the ravigs of a lunatic and with some fucking facts.
Ray
2005-01-05 17:52:30 UTC
Permalink
<Snip>


What a load of Crap!




If you don't like the US or it's values - fuck off back to where you
originated. Decency and drugs appear to be your problem. Where are you from?
Midjis
2005-01-06 00:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by i***@yahoo.com
I have enclosed a link to an article from a source more reliable than
www.ncfm.org. Like the study I've quoted, it documents what anyone
familiar with the phenomenon has known for a long time already: That
most accusations of rape in America over the last decade were false,
as were most rape convictions.
It's worth pointing out here that this is not an unreasonable claim.
Certainly, the majority of rape accusations in Britain are false, too.
Usually made up on the spur of the moment when admitting consensual sex
would be embarrassing; in some rare cases with the intent of causing
harm to the falsely-accused; occasionally when memory doesn't supply the
full details of what actually happened. Only a small percentage aren't
eventually found to be not quite what they seemed. And an awful lot of
time is wasted investigating such allegations.

HOWEVER, it is an unavoidable fact that not ALL rape allegations are
false, and society needs to show women who have suffered this sort of
violation that it WILL listen to them, that it WILL try to find the
offender, and that it WILL punish him.

That means that EVERY allegation needs to be thoroughly investigated.

At the same time, it's a sad fact that the public tend to judge based on
rumour and gossip, and rarely wait for the results of court cases.
Thus, someone accused of rape is likely to be considered guilty and
treated accordingly regardless of the outcome of due process. Given
that the mob mentality cannot be reasoned with, it's essential that the
accused also be offered a measure of protection until he is either found
not guilty, in which case he can hopefully start to rebuild his life, or
he is found guilty, at which point he can be thrown to the wolves and
good riddance to him.

Now, I don't pretend to understand the majority of what Ilya Shambat's
posts was trying to say - but I do think it's important that we don't
allow the fact that most rape accusations are false lead us to an
assumption that they don't matter, or that it never really happens. It
does happen, and to my mind it's one of the three most brutal,
life-shattering crimes that can be inflicted by one person on another.
Mike Painter
2005-01-06 19:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Midjis
Post by i***@yahoo.com
I have enclosed a link to an article from a source more reliable
than www.ncfm.org. Like the study I've quoted, it documents what
anyone familiar with the phenomenon has known for a long time
already: That most accusations of rape in America over the last
decade were false, as were most rape convictions.
It's worth pointing out here that this is not an unreasonable claim.
Certainly, the majority of rape accusations in Britain are false, too.
Bullshit.

The FBI estimates that only about 10% of rapes are reported and people that
actually work in the area feel the number of un-reported rapes is much
higher.
On college campuses it is *very* hard to even report one if you want to.

Most cases don't go to trial and fewer still get convictions.

Rape is the only crime where the victim is put on trial.
Midjis
2005-01-10 00:53:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Painter
Bullshit.
Aside from this, the majority of your post was intelligent. I'll
concentrate on that, if that's okay.
Post by Mike Painter
The FBI estimates that only about 10% of rapes are reported and people
that actually work in the area feel the number of un-reported rapes is
much higher.
On college campuses it is *very* hard to even report one if you want to.
Most cases don't go to trial and fewer still get convictions.
Rape is the only crime where the victim is put on trial.
Firstly, by definition, unreported rapes are not reported, and therefore
can't really figure in a discussion about rape accusations - IF it's
assumed that the accusation is made to the authorities. I did try to
make sure I said that I didn't really see what the original poster was
getting at - but then, to be quite honest, with Ilya I rarely do.

Secondly, apart from one or two invitations to the Bureau from our law
enforcement agencies, I am not aware that the FBI is responsible for
investigating crime in the United Kingdom, and I did quite clearly state
that my experience is within the UK.

Thirdly, your objection to my comments does not seem to be inconsistent
with them - perhaps because we are talking about two completely separate
aspects of the same crime: you talk about those unreported and the
difficulty of persuading people to report them; I was talking about
those that HAVE been reported. It's true that the problem you describe
relates to what I was saying - that it can NEVER be assumed that a
report isn't genuine unless there's clear evidence to suggest that.

Fourthly, I have never pretended to understand a great deal of what
occurs at American colleges. They appear to me to be a culture entirely
unto themselves.

You are correct that most rape cases don't go to trial. That's as true
here in the UK as it presumably is in the US. But why is that?
Probably because the majority of cases do not come to the attention of
the authorities, as you have indicated. Of those that do, the vast
majority are for some reason found to be unsafe to prosecute - often
because of inconsistencies in the complainant's story, sometimes because
of a tacit or specific indication that the incident did not occur as
originally described. These cases are hugely damaging to those who are
genuinely victims of this crime.

Finally, you state that the victim is on trial in rape cases. I would
submit that, to some degree, she must be. You see, as I said, the
public (certainly here in Britain and I would take any denial that the
situation is the same in the US with a large pinch of salt) are rarely
level-headed enough when it comes to sex crimes to await the judgement
of a court. They are keen to demonstrate their anger and indignation
against those they believe are rapists. And once the accusation is
made, the stigma is set. Even a not guilty verdict will be unlikely to
remove it. After all, the English and Welsh court system does not allow
for a declaration that someone is 'innocent'. And who in their right
mind would employ someone suspected of being a rapist? And how many
people would be tempted to teach a lesson to an offender who escaped
justice? Such accusations as these can destroy lives. Where they are
true, then of course the life they destroy is that of a rapist and is
therefore of no value or consequence. But where the accusation is wrong
or malicious, the falsely-accused innocent stands to suffer greatly.
Perhaps, strange as it may seem, more so than one accused of wounding or
even murder. Now, in an ideal world we would not have to protect the
accused from the public because the public would allow its own legal
system to operate without interference. But where the public are just
one newspaper exclusive away from lynch mob behaviour, care must be
taken. So yes, of course any such accusation needs to be thoroughly
investigated, because even the process of standing trial or being
arrested for this offence in particular will have enormous repercussions
for the accused.

For what it's worth, in the rare cases where a false accusation is
malicious, rather than misguided, it's my firm belief that the accuser
should be subject to the same penalty as that handed down for rape. I
would consider such an act to be a cruel violation of similar magnitude,
if of a very different nature.
Mike Painter
2005-01-10 03:14:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Midjis
Post by Mike Painter
Bullshit.
Aside from this, the majority of your post was intelligent. I'll
concentrate on that, if that's okay.
Post by Mike Painter
The FBI estimates that only about 10% of rapes are reported and
people that actually work in the area feel the number of un-reported
rapes is much higher.
On college campuses it is *very* hard to even report one if you want to.
Most cases don't go to trial and fewer still get convictions.
Rape is the only crime where the victim is put on trial.
Firstly, by definition, unreported rapes are not reported, and
therefore can't really figure in a discussion about rape accusations
- IF it's assumed that the accusation is made to the authorities. I
did try to make sure I said that I didn't really see what the
original poster was getting at - but then, to be quite honest, with
Ilya I rarely do.
Secondly, apart from one or two invitations to the Bureau from our law
enforcement agencies, I am not aware that the FBI is responsible for
investigating crime in the United Kingdom, and I did quite clearly
state that my experience is within the UK.
I doubt that men in the UK are significantly different from men anywhere.
The FBI estimates are probably valid there.
They can indeed figure in rape acusations because they reflect what is
widely known about the system in the USA and probably in similar countries.
Post by Midjis
Thirdly, your objection to my comments does not seem to be
inconsistent with them - perhaps because we are talking about two
completely separate aspects of the same crime: you talk about those
unreported and the difficulty of persuading people to report them; I
was talking about those that HAVE been reported. It's true that the
problem you describe relates to what I was saying - that it can NEVER
be assumed that a report isn't genuine unless there's clear evidence
to suggest that.
Fourthly, I have never pretended to understand a great deal of what
occurs at American colleges. They appear to me to be a culture
entirely unto themselves.
You are correct that most rape cases don't go to trial. That's as
true here in the UK as it presumably is in the US. But why is that?
Probably because the majority of cases do not come to the attention of
the authorities, as you have indicated. Of those that do, the vast
majority are for some reason found to be unsafe to prosecute - often
because of inconsistencies in the complainant's story, sometimes
because of a tacit or specific indication that the incident did not
occur as originally described. These cases are hugely damaging to
those who are genuinely victims of this crime.
If you believe this you have little knowledge of how the system works for
rape survivors vs those who were victims of other crimes.

If a defense attorney asked the victim of a violent robbery if he had even
given money to chariety before and then used this fact to show his client
was innocent, everyone would consider him crazy. This happens all the time
in rape cases.

Would you accept the argument if the *man* said he was robbed?
Should the victim of a robbery be put on trial in the same manner that the
rape survivor is?

The evidence needed to convict a robber and send him to jail for years is
far less than that needed to convict a rapist and send him to jail for
months.

The numbers that go to trial are small because these are the techniques that
are used.
Post by Midjis
Finally, you state that the victim is on trial in rape cases. I would
submit that, to some degree, she must be. You see, as I said, the
public (certainly here in Britain and I would take any denial that the
situation is the same in the US with a large pinch of salt) are rarely
level-headed enough when it comes to sex crimes to await the judgement
of a court. They are keen to demonstrate their anger and indignation
against those they believe are rapists. And once the accusation is
made, the stigma is set. Even a not guilty verdict will be unlikely
to remove it. After all, the English and Welsh court system does not
allow for a declaration that someone is 'innocent'. And who in their
right mind would employ someone suspected of being a rapist? And how
many people would be tempted to teach a lesson to an offender who
escaped justice? Such accusations as these can destroy lives. Where
they are true, then of course the life they destroy is that of a
rapist and is therefore of no value or consequence. But where the
accusation is wrong or malicious, the falsely-accused innocent stands
to suffer greatly. Perhaps, strange as it may seem, more so than one
accused of wounding or even murder. Now, in an ideal world we would
not have to protect the accused from the public because the public
would allow its own legal system to operate without interference.
But where the public are just one newspaper exclusive away from lynch
mob behaviour, care must be taken. So yes, of course any such
accusation needs to be thoroughly investigated, because even the
process of standing trial or being arrested for this offence in
particular will have enormous repercussions for the accused.
For what it's worth, in the rare cases where a false accusation is
malicious, rather than misguided, it's my firm belief that the accuser
should be subject to the same penalty as that handed down for rape. I
would consider such an act to be a cruel violation of similar
magnitude, if of a very different nature.
You have obviously formed your opinions on a lack of facts.

I'd suggest spending a hundred hours or so being education in the subject.
Spend a good part of it talking to women who survived rape and get their
side of the story.

Then document what you say above about what people might do if a person was
a suspect.
Midjis
2005-01-11 19:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Painter
I doubt that men in the UK are significantly different from men
anywhere. The FBI estimates are probably valid there.
Most likely, But they ARE FBI estimates, and not British ones. And I
believe it is important that I make it clear that I am a citizen of a
foreign country, and can only really speak as such.
Post by Mike Painter
They can indeed figure in rape acusations because they reflect what is
widely known about the system in the USA and probably in similar countries.
So are we in fact talking about actual *accusations*, or are we talking
about 'everybody knows'?
Post by Mike Painter
If you believe this you have little knowledge of how the system works
for rape survivors vs those who were victims of other crimes.
If you say so, then I am sure it must be so. But I do know that rape is
an exceedingly difficult crime to prove; that it is exceedingly
difficult to disprove; that there is enormous stigma attached to those
accused, whether innocent or guilty; and that it is humiliating for the
victim (sorry - 'survivor') in a way that most other crimes simply
cannot compare with. As a result of all these factors, it is inevitable
that the handling of rape cases must be different.
Post by Mike Painter
Would you accept the argument if the *man* said he was robbed?
Should the victim of a robbery be put on trial in the same manner that
the rape survivor is?
You are missing the basic point as regards the nature of the offence.
To prove an offence of theft, British law requires a number of points to
be satisfied - chief amongst which are that property was appropriated
dishonestly, and that the person who appropriated it intended to
permanently deprive the other of it. If either of these two main points
or several additional details) can be challenged, then a conviction
cannot be safe. So, if an accused thief can mount a sufficiently
convincing argument to sway a magistrate or jury that either s/he did
not obtain the property dishonestly (i.e., s/he might claim an
entitlement of some sort to the property), or that s/he did not intend
permanent deprivation, then the accusation is not clear-cut.

With robbery, which is theft through the use or threat of violence,
there are also several points to prove. What violence was used, or
threatened? What property was taken?

With rape, however, it can be even more difficult to prove the offence.
Certainly there are cases where the crime is clear-cut - but what about
the majority of cases, where the offender is known to the victim, and
the offence takes place in a location familiar to both? When the victim
claims she didn't consent, and the accused claims she did, merely
demonstrating that intercourse took place cannot in itself constitute
proof of rape. Physical evidence of violence, perhaps - but what if
that evidence is weak? And, as I've pointed out, the accusation itself
will be damaging enough - in a system whereby the accused is
(supposedly) innocent until proven guilty, extreme care must be taken to
ensure that that principle is adhered to. And in a public environment
where the accused is pretty much guilty if the tabloids say he is, even
MORE care must be taken. Difficult enough in rape cases, since most
will hinge on the judgement of a jury and the balance of probability,
rather than on incontrovertible evidence.

Certainly, many rape victims come through the court system feeling that
they have been violated twice: once in the offence itself, and again in
having to relive it in the courts, challenged at every end and turn. It
is certainly not ideal. Certainly the justice system of Britain - and
no doubt America - has yet to perfect its methods. And if you can think
of a better way of running a rape trial and handling this delicate
balancing act, with due respect to the rights of all involved and
without showing prejudice towards one side or the other, then judicial
history will sing your praises.
Mike Painter
2005-01-12 02:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Midjis
Post by Mike Painter
I doubt that men in the UK are significantly different from men
anywhere. The FBI estimates are probably valid there.
Most likely, But they ARE FBI estimates, and not British ones. And I
believe it is important that I make it clear that I am a citizen of a
foreign country, and can only really speak as such.
Post by Mike Painter
They can indeed figure in rape acusations because they reflect what
is widely known about the system in the USA and probably in similar
countries.
So are we in fact talking about actual *accusations*, or are we
talking about 'everybody knows'?
In general we are talking about valid statistical data based on a comparison
of what is reported to law enforcement verses what is reported to rape
crisis intervention programs as well as other sources.

In particular there is absolutely no valid reason to believe that the area
encompassed by college police should present fewer rapes (almost none in
most cases) than surrounding areas with very similar populations, yet that
is a nationwide trend.
We only have anecdotal evidence on a national scale that the police actually
discouraged the reporting.
Post by Midjis
Post by Mike Painter
If you believe this you have little knowledge of how the system works
for rape survivors vs those who were victims of other crimes.
If you say so, then I am sure it must be so. But I do know that rape
is an exceedingly difficult crime to prove; that it is exceedingly
difficult to disprove; that there is enormous stigma attached to those
accused, whether innocent or guilty; and that it is humiliating for
the victim (sorry - 'survivor') in a way that most other crimes simply
cannot compare with. As a result of all these factors, it is
inevitable that the handling of rape cases must be different.
It's "difficult" to prove only because our culture still does not accept the
concept that "no" means exactly that.
Post by Midjis
Post by Mike Painter
Would you accept the argument if the *man* said he was robbed?
Should the victim of a robbery be put on trial in the same manner
that the rape survivor is?
You are missing the basic point as regards the nature of the offence.
To prove an offence of theft, British law requires a number of points
to be satisfied - chief amongst which are that property was
appropriated dishonestly, and that the person who appropriated it
intended to permanently deprive the other of it. If either of these
two main points or several additional details) can be challenged,
then a conviction cannot be safe. So, if an accused thief can mount
a sufficiently convincing argument to sway a magistrate or jury that
either s/he did not obtain the property dishonestly (i.e., s/he might
claim an entitlement of some sort to the property), or that s/he did
not intend permanent deprivation, then the accusation is not
clear-cut.
Unless the person robbed is accused of and treated the same way the survivor
of rape is your culture is the same as mine.
Post by Midjis
With robbery, which is theft through the use or threat of violence,
there are also several points to prove. What violence was used, or
threatened? What property was taken?
With rape, however, it can be even more difficult to prove the
offence. Certainly there are cases where the crime is clear-cut - but
what about the majority of cases, where the offender is known to the
victim, and the offence takes place in a location familiar to both?
When the victim claims she didn't consent, and the accused claims she
did, merely demonstrating that intercourse took place cannot in
itself constitute proof of rape. Physical evidence of violence,
perhaps - but what if that evidence is weak? And, as I've pointed
out, the accusation itself will be damaging enough - in a system
whereby the accused is (supposedly) innocent until proven guilty,
extreme care must be taken to ensure that that principle is adhered
to. And in a public environment where the accused is pretty much
guilty if the tabloids say he is, even MORE care must be taken.
Difficult enough in rape cases, since most will hinge on the
judgement of a jury and the balance of probability, rather than on
incontrovertible evidence.
You asked about "what everybody knows" above. Where does your information
come from?
That most cases are false reports.
That the accusation of rape is worse than the accusation of robbery?
That the evidence presented in rape is weaker than that presented in a
robbery when a claim is made with nothing but the word of the participants
to go on?
How often does the defence say "My client was given the money and the
accuser changed his mind."
Same amount of evidence, an action and the word of the participants. Is
that a common defense for robbery in your country?
Post by Midjis
Certainly, many rape victims come through the court system feeling
that they have been violated twice: once in the offence itself, and
again in having to relive it in the courts, challenged at every end
and turn. It is certainly not ideal. Certainly the justice system
of Britain - and no doubt America - has yet to perfect its methods.
And if you can think of a better way of running a rape trial and
handling this delicate balancing act, with due respect to the rights
of all involved and without showing prejudice towards one side or the
other, then judicial history will sing your praises.
Yes, treat the rape survivor the same way that the victim of a robbery is
treated.

It seems that in Denmark, they do exactly that.

Victoria Hirt
2005-01-07 11:25:21 UTC
Permalink
What total nonsense!
The only freedom tyranny offers is the freedom to submit.
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